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Post by MadameConcorde on Dec 10, 2014 10:38:35 GMT -5
I like your Charltard avatar. Priceless!
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Post by agentf on Dec 11, 2014 10:05:00 GMT -5
The news of Will and Kate's NYC trip still takes media precedence over the birth, at least here. That's gotta hurt!! I have to say though, congratulations on the birth of the two children. They are most likely not the sum of parts of their parents so they are owed their moment under this sky like all children. I wish the children well, and a happy and healthy long life full of amazing milestones and memories. Life can be beautiful!
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lilae
Full Member
Posts: 110
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Post by lilae on Dec 16, 2014 13:09:23 GMT -5
Like it or not, she'll have to produce a second child. Always remember this about royal families: Heir and a Spare. So now, go home Trashy !
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Post by agentf on Dec 16, 2014 13:18:34 GMT -5
You may want to qualify "home" right now lol CC wants to go home too, by Christmas, but she means the palace... Like it or not, she'll have to produce a second child. Always remember this about royal families: Heir and a Spare. So now, go home Trashy !
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lilae
Full Member
Posts: 110
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Post by lilae on Dec 16, 2014 13:41:04 GMT -5
You may want to qualify "home" right now lol CC wants to go home too, by Christmas, but she means the palace... I mean plastic surgery clinic not the palace.
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Post by paca on Dec 16, 2014 15:07:47 GMT -5
You may want to qualify "home" right now lol CC wants to go home too, by Christmas, but she means the palace... lol you sure about that? she hasn't been to SA much since her IVF
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Post by agentf on Dec 17, 2014 7:21:59 GMT -5
Touché! Back to her own incubator You may want to qualify "home" right now lol CC wants to go home too, by Christmas, but she means the palace... I mean plastic surgery clinic not the palace.
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Post by tops on Apr 14, 2015 3:32:03 GMT -5
A fascinating (strange but true) story from today's Riviera Radio Online report:
A 65-year-old German grandmother is reportedly pregnant with quadruplets. Annegret Raunigk, who has 13 children and seven grandchildren, decided to try for another child because her youngest daughter, who is nine, wanted a little brother or sister.
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Post by agentf on Apr 14, 2015 6:37:41 GMT -5
That's just gross and the woman should be treated for mental problems. She's compulsive. A fascinating (strange but true) story from today's Riviera Radio Online report: A 65-year-old German grandmother is reportedly pregnant with quadruplets. Annegret Raunigk, who has 13 children and seven grandchildren, decided to try for another child because her youngest daughter, who is nine, wanted a little brother or sister.
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Post by tops on Apr 14, 2015 8:24:29 GMT -5
That's just gross and the woman should be treated for mental problems. She's compulsive. A fascinating (strange but true) story from today's Riviera Radio Online report: A 65-year-old German grandmother is reportedly pregnant with quadruplets. Annegret Raunigk, who has 13 children and seven grandchildren, decided to try for another child because her youngest daughter, who is nine, wanted a little brother or sister. On the news is reported that many fertility doctors are concerned about the risk. (and extreme example she is setting.) Yup, sounds like OCD.
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Post by hibou on Apr 14, 2015 10:02:44 GMT -5
A fascinating (strange but true) story from today's Riviera Radio Online report: A 65-year-old German grandmother is reportedly pregnant with quadruplets. Annegret Raunigk, who has 13 children and seven grandchildren, decided to try for another child because her youngest daughter, who is nine, wanted a little brother or sister. I would think the medical profession would have some sort of grounds to deny the woman's request. There are just so many unethical doctors out there. This woman obviously has problems. I can't imagine being pregnant and I'm almost her age. There comes a point where a normal person's body tells them enough already - it's called menopause. You have to wonder what hormones this woman has been injecting for years to be able to even carry the baby to term. You know the child is going to have all sorts of issues, physically and mentally. Can you image the first day of school when the teacher says in front of all the other young parents, "how nice that your grandmother brought you to school". Not to mention the child's existence is only because a sibling wanted younger companion. What if they don't even like each other? JMO
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Post by paca on Apr 15, 2015 8:02:39 GMT -5
honestly I find this discussion repulsive. No one condemns gay people for exploiting poor women to have children. No one tells men the same age that they are selfish to have kids with women that could be their daughters or granddaughters or points out to them that they are embarrassing to their kids for being old. Seriously? since when has it become a crime for women to get old? The sperm and the eggs are donations, so genetically there is no more risk then in any other baby. Multiple pregnancies are always risky, regardless off age. She is living in Germany and has access to the best medical care. There are several hospitals nearby specialized in treating extremely premature babies, should need be. Obviously they implanted too many embryos, but I suspect that given her age the doctors didn't expect all of them to actually settle in. So the risk is more or less the same for her then for everyone else. Seeing that she is fit and healthy might actually give her babies a better start then those of women taking drugs, drinking or being simply obese with diabetes 30 years her junior. This discussion is similar to older women dating and marrying younger men, but even more the discussion with regards to abortion.
Personally I wouldn't do either, but I know women who have done both. It is their choice and they have to live with it for the rest of their lives. It is not up to us to make a decision for them, otherwise we will soon be at the Nazi breeding program. There are parents who have IVF so they can save a child with a life threatening disease, the only reason for the baby to be created being as spare part donor for a sibling. How is that any better then having a baby because a child would love a sibling? the first will be born to suffer pain due to all sorts of medical treatments, these will be born to be loved by their mother and at least 1 sibling. Also claiming that she may not see them grow up. We'll the same is true for every single one of us, because as far as I know, no one knows their date of death at birth, so we all don't know how much time we will have. All we can do is make the best and most of it while we have a chance. Also this woman has older children. She is looking to move to an area closer to them so they can help, if need be. Her own mother is a fit 91. Obviously that doesn't say anything about how old she will be, but Queen mum was over 100 and her daughter nearing 90 as well as her husband are working harder then any of their grandchildren plus spouses put together. So yes it is unconventional, and no I wouldn't do it or recommend it, but it is her choice, her life and most of all her right to make that decision. When baby Louise started the IVF practice there was major discussion about it. I remember it well. Unfortunately when opening Pandoras box, they did not think ahead and adapt laws internationally. Because that is what really is the problem. That depending on which country you live in the age limit or number of embryos is different. IMO there shouldn't be an age limit, as that is discrimination, but strict medical guidelines, regardless of age in order to protect the women. Also from themselves. Secondly surrogacy and donations have to be strictly regulated to avoid especially the exploitation of poor women. In case of surrogacy there would have to be a rule about what happens, if it is multiple babies, but the family doesn't want one. What happens in case the baby is born with health issues etc. The laws to protect the babies and the mothers need an overhaul.
But to say a woman should be denied IVF due to her age is discrimination. And lets face it, who says that all those other IVF parents are not in need of therapy. We can not and should not be able to say who is allowed to get pregnant and who isn't. That's like saying only the well off and educated are allowed to have kids, because the poor will only get poorer and men and women at a specific income or on benefits get sterilized. These days it is illegal to sterilize handicapped people. And rightfully so. We have been there already and I do not think that anyone wants to live in a worldwide Hitler Germany.
Having said that, I know how it sounds, after criticizing trashy for IVF. Her case is different though. If thy were private people, it would be none of anyone business. But they are not. Then Albert is head of state of a Catholic country with the church having made clear how they feel about IVF, abortion and divorce. And then comes the legality with regards to succession and MC constitution. But the greatest issue to me is their fake relationship and the PR campaigning around it and now the babies. And the fact that a woman clearly sold her womb or at least her eggs to the highest bidder (I still haven't ruled out Lynette as a possible surrogate) for a legitimate heir and spare. It's not about being a father or creating a family with a partner you love and care for, but solely to have an heir and some kind of make belief fairy tale story to tell for commercial purposes. I do believe these kids will be loved by someone and I hope it will make up for all the phoniness around them, but I do not think it was a good decision. And with them being public people, blatantly lying to everyone, I do think that I can criticize. It's the dishonesty that bothers me most about this, not the IVF or using Lynette as surrogate. It's the attitude behind it that makes my skin crawl. The gold digging of one part and the abuse of women for dynastic purposes on the other.
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Post by paca on Apr 15, 2015 10:09:47 GMT -5
I forgot to add that in countries like Germany you have the legal right to know your origins, so in case of donation and surrogacy there needs to be the opportunity for a child to know the truth. Also I think that to stop parents from abusing their babies as spares for another child, in the interest of the child there needs to be a limit of medical procedures to be allowed to perform on the child while minor in order to protect it from unnecessary suffering and risking its health and in such case the consent of a non involved authority seems IMO to be necessary and in such cases should need to be part of such a childs life from the beginning to protect its interests from the parents. All in all I think regardless of how a child has been created (and I am sure that cloning of humans will eventually happen as well), what we need to do, is to make sure that those children who are born, are being properly taken care of. Maybe instead of making it so hard for people to adopt (in Germany parents over 40 need not apply and singles even less), the concern should be what happens to the child after the adoption. NOt every parent that adopts is necessarily capable, just as not every woman getting pregnant is automatically a good mother. We need to acknowledge that we can exercise control only within limits and that there are no guarantees in life. But we can make sure that everyone get's the support they need, when they struggle. And that is currently not the case. Instead of concerning ourselves with relatively rare cases, we should concern ourselves with the common cases of child abuse, neglect, exploitation of women etc. This teacher is actually a feminist par excellence, having raised 13 children without any help from their fathers or the state. She has made decisions and faced the consequences. That is more then can be said about most fathers at her age. Now she decided to take the entire process into her own hands. Had she thought of it sooner, she could have frozen her own eggs years ago and lets face it that is what companies in the US and elsewhere have volunteered to pay for, so that women can decide for themselves when in life they want to get pregnant. So would she have had that technology available to her 30 years ago, she wouldn't even have needed an egg donation, so no exploitation of another woman would have needed to take place. So to summarize, what we are seeing is what companies seem to be aiming for as a future option for women and I am fairly sure that we will be seeing much more of this in the future. We may not like it or want that for ourselves, but seeing that it has been done before means that we can not close Pandoras box. We can only try to make the best in handling the result and that should be first of all the well being of children and secondly preventing exploitation of the poor as good as we possibly can. And we have to legally oblige people engaging surrogates that they have to financially support that child, even if they decide that they do not want it after all because it is not the right gender, they only wanted one and the surrogate refused to terminate the others in multiple pregnancy or the child is born with disability. We need to produce international guidelines, so that people do not go shopping around the globe, because they would break the law in their home countries. And we have to learn to accept that the normal family as we used to know it doesn't exist anymore. We have all sorts of families these days and each of them bares potential to happiness and suffering and there is no predicting the outcome. From personal experience I can only state that I would have swapped my traditional normal family as a child against the mother I saw on TV interacting with her daughter without blinking twice. The girl she is raising is growing up being allowed to be herself, with her own personality, not needing to fulfill her mothers dreams or expectations other then being happy in her life and confident within her own skin. That is better then what a lot of middle class, status symbol kids are getting these days. And although the inside view is often different, I think these kids will not have a bad life ahead of them. They are wanted, they will be loved and they will be allowed to be themselves. And thks to the media contracts there will be enough money to go around too. I wish those Syrian refugee kids would have half as good a life ahead of them as theses ones, granted that the pregnancy ends successful.
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Post by hibou on Apr 15, 2015 16:14:12 GMT -5
paca a woman's body past menopause changes greatly and it has nothing to do with being in great shape. It has to do with how the body ages. While we all age differently, there are some things that are consistent beyond the age of 55 (the age at which most women have gone through menopause)and that is that even with hormone replacement which she would need in order to carry the baby to term (doesn't matter that egg and sperm are donated) there are huge risks for both the baby and the Mother. Doctors have the right to not want to treat a women if they are going to be held accountable if the baby or Mother dies. Some things are just more risky. It's why here in the US a women past the age of 35 is considered to be at higher risk for complications including gestational diabetes, stroke, etc even if she's in fantastic condition. Also by age 60 those on hormone replacement are usually cut back on estrogen because of cancer risks. I see nothing wrong with being a Mother at 65 except that as we've said with Albert, she will be in her 80's when her child will be 20. Wait till you hit 60 and you'll see what I'm talking about. I'm in pretty good shape but I can tell you that what I would have to do medically so my body could hang onto a baby and not miscarry would be extreme and potentially life-threatening to me and the baby. She could have frozen her eggs and used a surrogate which would have accomplished the same thing and not caused risk to the child or to the Mother. JMO.
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Post by paca on Apr 15, 2015 17:46:33 GMT -5
using a surrogate means exploiting and risking the life of another woman as potentially there is still a risk for a woman to die giving birth or just being pregnant, regardless of age or fitness or even country and access to medical care, albeit the latter point is probably the most crucial. I understand your point, but that is why I think that not age, but medical data should determine. Then again thus far little data with regards to older women or past menopausal women is available. Lets not forget that she got naturally pregnant and gave birth at 56. So she knew what she would be getting herself into getting pregnant at that age. IMO the number of implemented embryos should have been limited to 2 in general as a twin pregnancy is already a risk for any woman at any age. It is rare for the eggs to split in IVF after being implemented so the general risk to women would be reduced. Problem is that it is costly and most people lack funds for a second round so to higher chances, they do more. I think it is there they#d have to change things as it will also spare parents the decision to have to terminate one or more embryos, to at least get the chance of 1 baby to survive. Especially in IVF when you are trying to create life I find the need to terminate one embryo in the womb over another morally extremely questionable. With natural conception I can understand the thought behind it, although I would also opt in that case to trust nature and not interfere, but when you artificially create life and succeed, then you should leave things to nature after that. But again that decision is solely the decision of the woman concerned as she is the only one having to deal with it for the rest of her life or risking her life. It is her body, her life, her decision. But we do need to implement an international standard, so people don't shop around, risking their lives as it used to be the case when abortions were still illegal in many countries. Women need to be properly informed about all risks to themselves and the babies. Travelling to a country whose language you do not speak does not guarantee that. In this case the woman had the procedure done in Ukraine and she teaches Russian, so I think she had all information she wanted, plus it was possibly cheaper for her too...
btw in Germany a doctor can not refuse to treat you, when you are already pregnant. They have to refuse you regarding the legal prescriptions regarding IVF, but they have to treat her as soon as she is pregnant. Obviously a doctor can transfer her for a better suited doctor, i e if he is specialized in multiple or mature pregnancies or in her case even imminent premature birth, but they have to treat her as well as the babies, once they have reached a specific weight and age. But even there you can find doctor who have plenty of experience, who do not decide treatment upon weight, but other factors and who have managed to save children who would have been dead under the weight rule, but with the help of dedicated doctors and staff grew up perfectly normal. So as always you have to do your research, find a doctor you trust and take a decision you are prepared to live with. Which ever that will be. Personally, I had enough with my twin pregnancy, and I was 30 years younger at the time, so I wouldn't volunteer for what she is doing either. I know how stressful it was on my body and how long it took to recover and how much work 2 are when you are on your own, but again she has help, she is granted help by the government in the beginning and she is experienced. So I think she will be fine. But we will see. First she has to succeed her pregnancy.
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Post by tops on May 27, 2015 6:31:23 GMT -5
with all the recent photos (christening and grand prix) i am more convinced than ever - - that is NOT the body of a woman who had 2 kids just 5 months ago. i think lynette is the cat that ate the canary.
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Post by donna on May 28, 2015 15:39:43 GMT -5
with all the recent photos (christening and grand prix) i am more convinced than ever - - that is NOT the body of a woman who had 2 kids just 5 months ago. i think lynette is the cat that ate the canary. View AttachmentI was that thin after giving birth to my boys, one at a time. I dropped to two clothing sizes smaller than usually. Breastfeeding and stress can really take its toll, although I don't believe she is breastfeeding, just that she is eating very little. Remember this is a woman who've had number of painful surgeries to look a certain way. She is not going to look fat, just because she can't deny herself candy or something. She will smoke it off or take diet pills or do anything to loose weight. Her swollen face before the birth convinced me that she was carrying herself. She looked like a sixty year old woman who had had a double facelift. Horrid.
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Post by tops on May 29, 2015 2:49:17 GMT -5
with all the recent photos (christening and grand prix) i am more convinced than ever - - that is NOT the body of a woman who had 2 kids just 5 months ago. i think lynette is the cat that ate the canary. View AttachmentI was that thin after giving birth to my boys, one at a time. I dropped to two clothing sizes smaller than usually. Breastfeeding and stress can really take its toll, although I don't believe she is breastfeeding, just that she is eating very little. Remember this is a woman who've had number of painful surgeries to look a certain way. She is not going to look fat, just because she can't deny herself candy or something. She will smoke it off or take diet pills or do anything to loose weight. Her swollen face before the birth convinced me that she was carrying herself. She looked like a sixty year old woman who had had a double facelift. Horrid. This pic was taken on October 8th, 2014 at the PGF-USA gala in NYC. Does this look like a woman who would be giving birth to TWINS just 2 months later? The fact that she NEVER gave a proud side-profile pose is convincing enough that "there is nothing in there."
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